Whonix host - nonfree blobs - firmware-linux-nonfree

[Patrick]

• Context: Whonix ™ Host Operating System Development
• Purpose of this thread: keeping the discussion of nonfree vs free out of above thread.
• Non-Purpose of this: non-free software in Whonix ™ VMs (there is none but if you think there is another thread)
• Related: Whonix ™ and Free System Distribution Guidelines (GNU FSDG)

The position on nonfree firmware and discussion of arguments can be found here:

Dev/nonfree

[onion_knight]

To me it seems obvious that if we want to ship a Whonix-Host we have to make sure it will support out of the box as many hardware configurations as possible. Like any modern linux-live does (see Ubuntu, Tails). Otherwise it is pointless.

[nurmagoz]

@onion_knight

To me it seems obvious that if we want to ship a Whonix-Host we have to make sure it will support out of the box as many hardware configurations as possible. Like any modern linux-live does (see Ubuntu, Tails). Otherwise it is pointless.

No, what you are suggesting is pointless because you are preferring performance over security and programming ethics. The software shouldnt care about horrible hardware which doesnt accept the principles of the free software. Also we cant put users into the microscope of as 100% using shitty non-free/blobs, because for surely there is a percentage who want to put everything right even if its 1% and thats what we focus on and leading others to follow their example.

If we dont do that comfortability of insecurity&nonfree will always give relaxing feeling which shouldnt. And i like Debian philosophy which they care about the software and focus on it thats why their software always produced as free software and thats what our values should be.

anyone who want to use blobs he can do that manually to serve his needs.

[onion_knight]

@nurmagoz

No, what you are suggesting is pointless because you are preferring performance over security and programming ethics.

What I meant is that we should provide the same level of comfort and ease of use that provide Tails for instance, which runs out of the box on most hardware configurations at the best of my knowledge.

@nurmagoz

anyone who want to use blobs he can do that manually to serve his needs.

Impossible in a live environment.

[nurmagoz]

@onion_knight

Impossible in a live environment.

True , simply not Whonix issue = So as Free distros like Debian.

But solution that might be in the middle for ONLY live versions which it can be a version without blobs and version with blobs and we let the users choose which one they are comfortable with. But we dont force them on having blobs into their version (which in case if there will be only one nasty version).

[Patrick]

@nurmagoz

But solution that might be in the middle for ONLY live versions which it can be a version without blobs and version with blobs and we let the users choose which one they are comfortable with.

Two separate downloadable versions are unlikely for a few reasons:

• development resources are limited
• minority interest in a freedom-only such a version
• usability: more choices leads to more confusion

@nurmagoz

But we dont force them on having blobs into their version (which in case if there will be only one nasty version).

We don’t force anything on anyone. Whonix source code is free in price as well as in freedom. It’s an volunteer offer. Not a lawful prescription. Those who don’t like the final product can either any or multiple of the following:

• software fork Whonix
• create their own custom freedom-only Whonix builds from source code using a build parameter
• do not use Whonix
• use a different product

There will always be people who won’t like Whonix for whatever reason. Making everyone happy is impossible.

Edits by myself:

• specify minority interest in freedom-only version
• removed tangential relevance of XFCE vs KDE

[nurmagoz]

@Patrick

Two separate downloadable versions are unlikely for a few reasons:

• development resources are limited
• minority interest in such a version
• usability: more choices leads to more confusion

Then no need for blobs and keep it free.

@Patrick

We don’t force anything on anyone. Whonix source code is free in price as well as in freedom. It’s an volunteer offer. Not a lawful prescription. Those who don’t like the final product can either any or multiple of the following:

That rises the question: ALL whonix products going to have blobs or only whonix-host? meaning:

Whonix-Qubes
Whonix-KVM
Whonix-Host

all of these products going to have the same blobs? or just one or two… please explain more.

[Patrick]

My previous post edited by me just now.

@nurmagoz

That rises the question: is ALL whonix products going to have blobs or only whonix-host? meaning:

Whonix-Qubes
Whonix-KVM
Whonix-Host

all of these products going to have the same blobs? or just one or two… please explain more.

Whonix-Host only.

There will be two new meta packages.

• whonix-host-kvm-freedom (entirely Freedom Software)
• whonix-host-kvm-nonfreedom (depending on nonfreedom firmware)

The exact package names are yet to be decided.

These packages will not installed inside VMs. Whonix-Host default download would be built the -nonfreedom version.

[nurmagoz]

I see , since the main product of whonix is not going to be contaminated with dirty software than thats great. And thats alone is a choice users can decide if they want to run whonix in free VS nonfree environment.

[Patrick]

Edited my previous post. (The clarification inside () was actually swapped.) Now fixed.

[Patrick]

Whonix can become a distribution targeting first time Linux users?

proprietary wifi drivers have been the cause of many regular support requests for me in relation to my guide for debian. for a long time, i’d wanted to keep debian set to the default foss configuration. but, wifi issues had me at times considering moving the base install to ubuntu, simply because it was easy. at one point, i’d experimented with a chapter to enable “contrib” and “non-free” in debian for 3rd party driver issues for those who needed it. but, that resulted in its own set of issues …

[Patrick]

What can be added once Whonix-Host exists and once we get to it… Whonix calamares based installer can have a question.

Install non-freedom firmware?

yes
no

If you don’t know: say yes here.

yes being the default. That would give users capable / willing to run entirely Freedom Software the choose to do so.

It would still be non-perfect because the non-freedom packages are still on the ISO, no separate Freedom-only ISO but at least after installation the system will be entirely Freedom Software.

A separate Freedom-only ISO might be released as hardware capable to run freedom-only (without nonfreedom firmware) is more widespread.

[tempest]

@Patrick

A separate Freedom-only ISO might be released as hardware capable to run freedom-only (without nonfreedom firmware) is more widespread.

if there’s enough of a debate or interest in this, that’s probably the easiest way. it’s what debian does.

[Patrick]

Easiest? For those who want Freedom-only ISO? For sure, yes.

Otherwise, no. That is for usability of the website (confusing users
with proprietary hardware who never understood “Free” Software with
choices) and also extra effort on my side.

[59mpci2GJ5xlHhY]

As important as I believe free firmware is for a project especially of this nature, Patrick is probably right. Whonix Dev resources seem stretched thin as it is.

For now, until free firmware is more accessible, perhaps providing a hyperlink to documentation on how to build your own free firmware only live ISO from source would be fine. Those capable or willing to run the free firmware version are probably advanced enough to be willing to do that as building or buying $$$ a fully free device isn’t that easy right now.