[HOME] [DOWNLOAD] [DOCS] [NEWS] [SUPPORT] [TIPS] [ISSUES] [DONATE]

Should all kernel patches for CPU bugs be unconditionally enabled? Vs Performance vs Applicability

Should all kernel patches for CPU bugs be unconditionally enabled? We currently enable all of the mds vulnerability mitigations.

Setting spectre_v2=on as a boot parameter will force the spectre v2 mitigation to be enabled.

l1tf=full,force will enable all mitigations for the L1TF vulnerability and disable smt (which is already disabled with the mds mitigations).

spec_store_bypass_disable=on will enable the SSB vulnerability mitigation (spectre v4). ClipOS recommends to use spec_store_bypass_disable=seccomp which disables the mitigation by default but enables it for programs using seccomp.

This should also partly get rid of the need for microcode updates.

1 Like

spectre-meltdown-checker reports that disabling EPT would mitigate L1TF. EPT can be disabled with kvm-intel.ept=0 (I think). Does anyone know more about this?

I just found https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.19/admin-guide/l1tf.html

  1. Disabling EPT

Disabling EPT for virtual machines provides full mitigation for L1TF even with SMT enabled, because the effective page tables for guests are managed and sanitized by the hypervisor. Though disabling EPT has a significant performance impact especially when the Meltdown mitigation KPTI is enabled.

EPT can be disabled in the hypervisor via the ‘kvm-intel.ept’ parameter.

This sounds like something that should be disabled.

Do we care enough about performance to go through with these?

Related:

1 Like

From perspective of security-misc on a host:

  • Will machines get slower, that are patched (kernel, microcode) already?

From perspective of VMs with security-misc installed:

  • Will VMs get slower, where host, VM kernel, hypervisor, microcode is fully patched already?

What is the rationale for unconditionally enable i.e. setting to on? Why not leave it at auto?

  • on - Unconditionally enable mitigations. Is enforced by spectre_v2=on

  • Not specifying this option is equivalent to spectre_v2=auto.

Whonix VirtualBox: For VirtualBox this currently would only result in slow down:
https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Spectre_Meltdown#VirtualBox

Qubes: up to Qubes, should be fixed by Qubes.

Whonix KVM: Status? @HulaHoop

Debian based hosts using security-misc package: auto should do?

What’s the rationale of not applying microcode updates?
You think we should protect users who don’t know about microcode updates? Probably many. In that case, auto should do?
A way to protect them will also be “hardened debian” where we could automate running spectre-meltdown-checker on the host through “whonixcheck”.
Related:
https://phabricator.whonix.org/T827

1 Like

Likely not. If they’re already applying patches then security-misc will just make sure they are applied.

If the host is already patched then the VMs won’t get slower as the VMs would be trying to patch something that is already patched so it won’t do anything.

If the kernel doesn’t properly detect if the CPU is vulnerable or not then the patches won’t be applied. This is especially problematic for people who use KVM as their hypervisor as it spoofs the host’s CPU model so the kernel in a VM has no way to know that the CPU is vulnerable, thus the patches won’t be applied.

Enabling all mitigations may also prevent unknown bugs. For example, smt seems to be a big part in many of these CPU bugs.

Whonix can’t apply microcode updates from VMs. This way we are protected from the CPU bugs without having to touch the host.

Also, some people may not want to install proprietary software. This is even worse for people using OSes like Parabola, PureOS or any other OS trying to be completely free as it won’t allow the user to install microcode updates.

Yes.

That depends. See my reasons above.

If not in a KVM VM or any other VM that spoofs the CPU model then auto should be ok.

1 Like

madaidan via Whonix Forum:

If the kernel doesn’t properly detect if the CPU is vulnerable or not then the patches won’t be applied.

How likely is that? Happening already? Would spectre-meltdown-checker
catch that?

This is especially problematic for people who use KVM as their hypervisor as it spoofs the host’s CPU model so the kernel in a VM has no way to know that the CPU is vulnerable, thus the patches won’t be applied.

HulaHoop changed Whonix KVM to host-passthrough:

https://github.com/Whonix/whonix-libvirt/blob/master/usr/share/whonix-libvirt/xml/Whonix-Gateway.xml

<cpu mode='host-passthrough'/>

Was discussed somewhere here also:

Also, some people may not want to install proprietary software. This is even worse for people using OSes like Parabola, PureOS or any other OS trying to be completely free as it won’t allow the user to install microcode updates.

I find this unreasonable. They do run proprietary software anyhow,
perhaps without knowing. Either, they’re running the unpatched nonfree
pre-installed CPU microcode and Intel AMT or AMD PSP or they’re running
the patches nonfree equivalents. Of these two evils, the patched nonfree
equivalent are better.

1 Like

Not sure. I’ve never heard of it happening. It should only happen if the CPU model is somehow being spoofed.

Should the wiki page be updated then?

I agree. These people just don’t seem to understand that.

1 Like

Yes.

1 Like

AFAIK Linux enables the mitigations by default whenever possible using auto. Debian also backported patches against mds. [1]

It is only recently (Linux v5.2) that there is a unified switch for disabling all mitigations for performance on machines not facing the network.[2]

[1] https://news.softpedia.com/news/debian-patches-new-intel-mds-security-vulnerabilities-in-debian-linux-stretch-526047.shtml

[2] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Spectre-Meltdown-Easy-Switch-52

Not really. In the case of MDS microcode is needed to be of any effect.

IMPORTANT: There is no software fallback mechanism available for processors that have not received microcode updates from Intel. Mitigation is only possible if Intel has provided a microcode update for your processor.

I really don’t think we should mess with the default spectre/meltdown kernel switches in this case as upstream is clearly aware of the problem and is taking appropriate action. Non defaults will confuse users and might leave them to other attacks they are otherwise safe from.

EPT is the Virtualization hardware solution for safe and fast memory isolation allowing deprecation of shadow page tables done in software for hypervisors You don’t want to disable this.

Yes everything should be left as is. It comes as auto by default. The KVM guest kernel will enforce whenever it detects the necessary microcode extensions are activated.

2 Likes

Quote https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/hw-vuln/l1tf.html#default-mitigations

The kernel does not by default enforce the disabling of SMT, which leaves SMT systems vulnerable when running untrusted guests with EPT enabled.

Since we disable SMT (mds=full,nosmt) that should be ok?

As per https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/hw-vuln/l1tf.html#smt-control there is also a separate kernel boot parameter nosmt=force which I find confusing. Should we set that as well?

Let’s please reconsider this. Quote https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/hw-vuln/l1tf.html#default-mitigations

The kernel does not by default enforce the disabling of SMT, which leaves SMT systems vulnerable when running untrusted guests with EPT enabled.

The administrators of cloud and hosting setups have to carefully analyze the risk for their scenarios and make the appropriate mitigation choices, which might even vary across their deployed machines and also result in other changes of their overall setup. There is no way for the kernel to provide a sensible default for this kind of scenarios.

My reading of that page is that the kernel developers do not want to set secure defaults for all scenarios due to:

  • the huge degraded performance as well as
  • breaking existing systems that use unattended upgrades.

But we have secure by default development goals and more flexibility of blessing some scenarios “then you need to change back the settings” or unsupported.

L1TF = L1 Terminal Fault

Should we set l1tf kernel boot parameter?

[X86] Control mitigation of the L1TF vulnerability on affected CPUs

Need to make sure this doesn’t break any virtualizer at the host or any guest VMs.

This is because currently our security-misc config passes

sudo spectre-meltdown-checker ; echo $?

but fails

sudo spectre-meltdown-checker --paranoid ; echo $?

due to

STATUS: VULNERABLE (enable L1D unconditional flushing and disable Hyper-Threading to fully mitigate the vulnerability)

Setting kernel boot parameter l1tf=full,force fixes that.


These mitigations are much more important on the host for Host/vm isolation, but are needed for interprocess separation in a VM. If anyone can lookup their status in default debian kernels it would be useful so we know what needs to be enabled in security-misc/documented and so on.

The separate option is to guard against disabling via sysfs. I’d enable it to make things more robust in case of malicious actions in a guest.

One important consideration is to find out if AMD systems are unfairly impacted by these mitigations when they don’t really apply to them. In that case we should turn them on for certain CPU families.

Agreed.

1 Like

Without disabling HT the vuln would be there, but I heard HT disabling really cripples system perf.

1 Like

A post was merged into an existing topic: Whonix vulerable due to missing processor microcode packages? spectre / meltdown / retpoline / L1 Terminal Fault (L1TF)

Trying to decode this mostly fluff talk video by Intel on L1TF. Quote https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_pa2AisRUs

in some cases where it can’t be guaranteed that all virtualized operating systems have been updated some customers may choose to take additional actions first and coupled with the l1 cache flush they can ensure that only trusted siblings have access to the same processor core this capability is called core scheduling and is already supported by some hypervisors if course scheduling isn’t available and they suspect there might be potentially untrustworthy sibling sharing access to the l1 cache it may be appropriate to take further action like only allowing one thread to run per core this demonstrates what would happen if SMT were disabled while these actions might be applicable to a relatively small portion of the overall market we think it’s important to provide solutions for all our customers

Did they really mean “if the microcode, host and guest operating systems is patched, then there is no need to disable SMT”?

In other words, did they really mean “only if guests are not patched it might make sense to pin CPUs to guests and/or to disable SMT”?

Is it true that SMT needs to be disabled when running unpatched guests? A malicious guest using kexec to load a malicious kernel couldn’t read secrets by another VM using the same L1 cache if that other VM was patched?

This has to remain future work. While there are many researchers find out more and more attacks and kernel developers invent mitigations, there seems to be a severe shortage of people who are working on analysis tools such as spectre-meltdown-checker or enabling mitigations for as many users as easily as possible. Such as through installation of a package such as security-misc or a distribution such as Kicksecure or Whonix-Host. I am not aware of anyone else working on that currently. There are way too many vulnerabilities, mitigations, use scenarios, processors and therefore resulting combinations which makes this hard to implement.

For start, we could use a wiki table with an overview. Not even sure yet what contents such as table would need. Vulnerabilities, mitigations, use scenarios, processor(s) (families), locally exploitable, remotely exploitable, local information leak, remote information leak (NetSpectre), relevant when using a hypervisor vs not using a hypervisor.

Qubes disabled HT.
( https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/5547 )
Performance is OK for me with disabled HT but it’s a powerful machine.

I think we should disable HT. Qubes disables it too.

Quote https://coreos.com/os/docs/latest/disabling-smt.html

Recent Intel CPU vulnerabilities (L1TF and MDS) cannot be fully mitigated in software without disabling Simultaneous Multi-Threading.

Therefore we better disable it.

This can have a substantial performance impact and is only necessary for certain workloads, so for compatibility reasons, SMT is enabled by default.

I guess for good security, switch from Windows to a Linux distribution. And I guess for advanced security, use Whonix, Whonix-Host, Kicksecure. For our target user it seems appropriate to disable SMT.

In addition, the Intel TAA vulnerability cannot be fully mitigated without disabling either of SMT or the Transactional Synchronization Extensions (TSX).

SMT and TSX should be disabled on affected Intel processors under the following circumstances:

  1. A bare-metal host runs untrusted virtual machines, and other arrangements have not been made for mitigation.
  2. A bare-metal host runs untrusted code outside a virtual machine.

In our threat model we deem most code untrusted. We don’t want to trust any code but sometimes we have to. That’s why we use linux user account separation and mandatory access controls. Because some code is considered not deliberately malicious (such as the browser) but potentially exploitable (therefore considered untrusted). Therefore I think “runs untrusted code outside a virtual machine” always applies in our threat model.

Otherwise also things would be more complicated.

  • Kicksecure users not using a hypervisor: no need to disable SMT
  • Whonix host users running VMs: should disable SMT

SMT can be conditionally disabled by passing mitigations=auto,nosmt on the kernel command line. This will disable SMT only if required for mitigating a vulnerability. This approach has two caveats:

  1. It does not protect against unknown vulnerabilities in SMT.

I guess at the quantity and speed at which vulnerabilities are published we again ought to disable SMT here.

Alternatively, SMT can be unconditionally disabled by passing nosmt on the kernel command line. This provides the most protection and avoids possible behavior changes on upgrades, at the cost of a potentially unnecessary reduction in performance.

1 Like

+1


OK


The amount of new bugs that keeps being uncovered is staggering and will make anyone’s head spin:
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Intel-Two-More-Data-Leakage

1 Like
1 Like

After the recent reconsideration, yes.

Seems like a good idea.

https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/admin-guide/hw-vuln/spectre.html

High security mode

All Spectre variant 2 mitigations can be forced on at boot time for all programs (See the “on” option in Mitigation control on the kernel command line). This will add overhead as indirect branch speculations for all programs will be restricted.

Done above.

Using that now.


Please let me know should any mitigation not be unconditionally enabled yet.

1 Like
[Imprint] [Privacy Policy] [Cookie Policy] [Terms of Use] [E-Sign Consent] [DMCA] [Investors] [Priority Support] [Professional Support]