concern trolling

As far as I can tell, this guy is a “concern troll” i.e. presents as an occasional user of Qubes platform (with Windows 10 as a mainstay by their own admission WTF), but (not so) subtly tries to insert doubts in the reader’s mind about the Whonix platform constantly.


Note they constantly lets in little snippets across various forum topics with consistent themes. This is quite interesting for someone who apparently doesn’t care about anonymity. Pushing a barrow perhaps?

Coolie’s themes:

1. The “Qubes is good for security, but not really for anonymity” theme i.e. trying to unconsciously influence reader to question Tor / Whonix etc.


I think Qubes is more for home desktop security, not really anonymity. Maybe tails on a flash drive is more for your use case.

2. General bushido theme i.e. trying to plant the seeds of doubt again.


I read that whonix thread. Still not sure why whonix doesn’t have a canary.
What could it hurt? Any aspect of the project could be compromised for any reason. Thats the same as people saying I have nothing to hide so why worry. In the other thread Patrick says US laws affect all countries.

Note the wiki already clearly explains why there isn’t a Whonix Warrant Canary.

3. The “Anonymity is just too hard” theme. General bullshido again; from link above.

The websites I use qubes for ban tor or it just has no benefit. Anonymity is different then privacy.

LIke I said, I was using tor to check certificates and update my qubes. But its so dam slow, the whonix qubes is always so sketchy with errors, and there isn’t much support help for it. So I stopped using it.

Note that claim is shot down by another user in the same thread.

4. The “Tor is dangerous to use” theme.

Sitting on a US couch doesn’t qualify for “dangerous territory”. Funnily enough, a sizeable number have used it for many, many years and are still breathing.


Don’t most IRC networks even block tor now? Tor to me is almost dangerous to use.

I’d only use tor as my daily connection right now if I was fearing for my life or fear of imprisonment.

5. The “It’s just too hard people!” theme.

Classic psyops. Laughable really - since by now their rants suggest they’re probably on the govvie payroll themselves.


(my emphasis)

and it would still require alot more discipline and restraint not to post exposing information about yourself online, that would defeat the purpose of using something like facebook or twitter imno. Again not something I could see practical for daily life. Are there propagandists and government agents on these sites. Of course, but even they have a separate personal digital life somewhere. The world is getting faker by the minute, we don’t need more fakes.

Yes, you’re right my boy. We don’t need cooloutac propagandists making forums even faker than they already are.

6. My favourite - the “Whonix developers are emotional” theme.


But I for one wouldn’t trust you the same as trusting someone like Marek. And thats what it boils down to. You are a little too emotional and have multiple agendas in your life. But at least you’re not as bad as the subgraph os guy. And hey I wouldn’t trust me if I was running a project either lol.

Everytime I came to you with a problem you had an attitude. I never experienced that on qubes forums. And updating whonix is so sketchy and such a pain in the ass I gave up on it. I have no need for it. I think it creates more security problems then it solves in qubes.

Anybody who has seen Patrick’s posts over the years will note he is hardly emotional and generally been helpful with advice. So this is just a bullshido claim.


A) If my suspicions are right, then I give the propagandists 2/10 for this effort (+1 bonus point for the cool handle).

B) Or if I’m wrong (it wouldn’t be the 1st time), we have an apparent Windows 10 knob jockey who really, really has a big hard on for Whonix (which they never use), and has taken OCD to the next level.

I’m not sure which is worse. :wink:

Soldier on…

  1. And Patrick isn’t emotional?

Emotional doesn’t necessarily imply insulting or otherwise inappropriate behavior. If you like to complain about about insulting behavior or to proof a point, I suggest quote specific examples and provide references (hyperlinks).

He just told me to “FUCK OFF” lol.

I didn’t. Citation required.

This was already addressed on qubes-users mailing list.

And actually be using it you are using up bandwidth those people could be using, just to feel special.

Citation required.

At no point Tor Project had the position that people should limit
themselves if possible, except for Bittorrent traffic. On the contrary.
They welcome Tor adaption.

See PDF:

Anonymity Loves Company: Usability and the Network Effect

By Roger Dingledine and Nick Mathewson (Tor founders and core developers)


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Yes I use windows 10 for gaming and entertainment. But I use Qubes for other things. My mother uses Qubes as her mainstay does that count? She is not even that computer literate which probably pisses off an inferiority complex nerd like yourself.

Au contraire. If grannies can expand the user base, that is better for all of us, since the population is only ~30K last time I looked. It also means grannie has taken her security to the next level, particularly if she properly compartmentalizes her activities (and uses Qubes-Whonix for activities requiring anonymity).

Anybody can use it. That’s the beauty of it.


I respond to people asking for opinions or help on the Qubes forums. I keep things simple and don’t respond to anything I haven’t experienced myself. and I dislike rude people who can dish it but can’t take it. I find that suspect. Patrick was afraid to troll me on the google mailing list too. no problem. Thats why i love that Qubes chose google. Keeps the trolls out!!

This is irrational. Provide evidence of these alleged, phantom posts you keep referring to - they are not yet in evidence, because they simply don’t exist.

Security and anonymity are two diff things.

Yes, as explained in our wiki.

Qubes was geared for home desktop users. Which a common daily task would be logging into personal accounts and keeping data. Hiding my location is something I have no need for.

‘Hiding my location is something I have not need for.’ You hold this false belief firmly, simply because you have not educated yourself - explaining your ill-informed statements on multiple forums and threads. For instance, if you bothered to consult the wiki:




And considered the information objectively, then you would quickly come to a different conclusion. If you know better, then you can choose to be a willing victim of surveillance capitalism, or someone who wants to protect their inalienable rights.

It has some minor benfits like avoiding someone targeting qubes users with bad updates form upstream source, but I always find whonix problematic when it comes to updating. This should be common sense and simple to understand. Unless of course you are trolling…

Because again, you didn’t consult the wiki, otherwise you would have run the following test and probably discovered you had poor Tor guards in operation.


The alternative explanation is v3 onions were spotty at that time, and you didn’t bother to enforce the fallback clearnet repos (now the default in Whonix again until OnionBalance comes to v3 onions and it is proven reliable for update/upgrade purposes).


The explanation for why Whonix doesn’t have a canary is a poor one to me. And like I said, to claim laws are not same in certain countries but while at same time claiming US laws affect everywhere is contradictory. And I find having no canary suspect. If you don’t like that , that’s your problem. I explained other reasons why as well and you seem to have no retort to it. Except to troll my character which is typical troll behavior.

You state something assertively, without evidence or a strong rationale. On the other hand, I’ve used objective resources, feedback from the team, and the Whonix forums to write that entry.


You need to explain why Canary Watch is wrong in their reasoning, why the vast majority of companies don’t have a canary (including the likes of Debian - security aficionados), and provide a realistic scenario where Whonix can be backdoored via that method. Otherwise your rage is moot.

Security in general is hard. And anonymity is even harder especially if you want a life. For home desktop a more practical solution would be a good vpn. But you would have better anonymity using tails on disposable disk.

Wrong on VPNs - snake oil at best, since it relies on privacy by policy i.e. a promise. Plus helluva lot easier to monitor due to the limited number of servers in comparison to Tor.


Wrong on TAILS. If you use TAILS, then you do not have a persistent set of guards, and research has shown that makes deanonymization easier for adversaries if you do this from one set location. Do your homework before giving incorrect advice on Qubes and other forums.


In the main, if you are trying to foil corporate surveillance capitalists, and run-of-the-mill passive surveillance then Tor is fine. However, if you are under targeted attack then you are screwed.


Anonymity loves company, because if more people use Tor and other anonymity measures, it becomes infeasible for TPTB to backdoor everyone. Also, if computers can be avoided for certain tasks, then I strongly recommend it to take government/corporate actors completely out of the equation.

An example of how tor is so dangerous to use is how many MITM attempts will be made against you when simply updating whonix, simply because you are using tor. Something I’ve learned when using it when Andrew Wong pointed it out to me. Patrick himself on the Qubes forums states he can’t account for security of tor node servers. Which lets face it are probably run by alot of shady people.

True - although the proportion of Slim Shady vs normal exit nodes is an unknown factor. But you didn’t have to ‘learn this from Andrew’. Instead, you could have just read the basic, introductory sections of the wiki.


However, MITM attacks CAN be foiled by onions, but you knew that right?


Users who educate themselves also hear about traffic confirmation attacks, path selection attacks, circuit clogging attacks and so on - see the Tor website and associated research. Tor is not invincible, nor is any other software (or hardware) running out there.

Consider for example that your ‘grannie secure’ Qubes platform could be taken over by any advanced adversary capable of Spectre type attacks, for which no solutions currently exist. So what? You’ve raised the bar considerably in the process and limited the likelihood of successful attacks significantly.

Whonix uses the same principle (raising the bar) by separating the Tor process from workstation activities, and running them in separate VMs. On the other hand, people running Tor Browser on the host have no fallback after a successful attack.

You can either remain a fatalist, or become someone willing to stand up for your rights despite the hardware and software imperfections we will always live with.

Or how bout how you would be putting yourself on the governments radar and suspicion just for using it. I’m not even talking about the dark web… Which is a criminal barbarian haven you’d most likely become a victim of by visiting.

You seem to not have noticed that everyone is on the government radar these days, hence why they are collecting everything on everyone - meta-data laws, biometrics, all communications etc - all in breach of decades-long human right bills. The government is in breach of laws and you are apologizing for their behavior.

It is true that by remaining in a smaller subset, you gain more attention. But nobody ever said defending your rights would be easy. The blame could just as easily be placed on all those individuals out there who lamely give away their data with 50 pg ToS when they install Windows 10, and fail to use the Tor network and Libre software instead. That is, by not changing their lemming behavior in spite of the many intelligence and corporate disclosures, they imperil us all.

And the ‘dark web’ is a ‘criminal barbarian haven’. Sources?

Arguably, it is a blueprint for what the rest of the internet should be, in order to increase the security of browsing, file sharing, general communications and so on. That’s why the government lemmings hate it so much. Do your homework and read the research.

You are repeating yourself here. Yes its extremely hard. Everyone in the field knows that. You should probably just change your name to TorGroupie. Since you don’t really seem to have any experience with anything except trolling. You wouldn’t know if you were compromised if something crawled up your ass. I accept the fact I’m compromised. Joanna herself claims noone can tell if they are.

Agree that you’ll never know if you’re compromised by advanced adversaries. So what? Perhaps you haven’t heard of the lesser adversaries and corporate psychopaths. Security and anonymity is not a “all or nothing” proposition. Again, I can choose to do some things completely offline if I want to defend my rights at all measures - and I often do.

And Patrick isn’t emotional? He just told me to “FUCK OFF” lol.

Actually, I told you to ‘f**k off’ (in a moment of weakness) because I could see well in advance that you either had issues with simple reading comprehension, or were likely a clumsy concern troll.

Hes the typical linux snob. The type of elitist troll you find in a linux irc chatroom. The type to take the time to belittle me while at the same time hypocritically claiming he has no time to answer my question. He must of grew up and been raised by irc chatrooms. You can tell the difference with invisible things labs, and its one of the things I like about them.

Evidence is wanting. Sources?

And no wonder qubes-whonix left the project. I would of left too. Patrick seems to have other priorities then security and performance of Whonix. I bet with a little research on him I could figure out his other agendas easily. Come try me we can go there.

Wrong. Patrick’s strong preference is security and performance, hence why he wasn’t holding your hand in the original thread where you did nil research. He has more productive things to do.


If you had bothered to learn about the project, then you would realize the number of contributors has increased in recent times.


And yes, we welcome your devastating research into “Patrick’s agendas”.

And hey TorGroupie, why don’t you go “FUCK OFF” too. Try this one on for size. Tor is so painfully slow that If you are not fearing for your life or fearing imprisonment. You’re a selfish prick who might be getting someone else killed using its bandwidth…

Actually, I’m helping dissidents, people living under repressive regimes, the military, journalists, ‘grandma Qubes users’, spooks, the former cooloutAC when he wasn’t a pussy, and a range of others by providing covering network traffic. And similarly, they are helping me. Tor isn’t any good if the only ones using it are spooks for example.

If you read the research by the Tor co-founders, academics, or even the front page of the Tor website, then you’d know that anonymity loves company. A basic principle that is well-established in research.

Keep pretending you’re special by sticking it to the ad agencies. I do dislike in your face ads on webpages which are security risks in themselves. But if it weren’t for ads and trackers we would of never had tv and probalby wouldn’t have an internet. We wouldn’t have this very google mailing list. Which keeps the trolls under their rocks!!

I never claimed to be special, but your egregious posts deserved a solid reply. And Google!? Rookie mistake.


Come troll me here, don’t be scared of the google. Or are they restricting your shady tor node…

I’ve wasted enough time and energy on your fact-free reply. At least one good thing has come of this discussion – you might wanna recommend ‘grandma’ onionize those repos again… :slight_smile:

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And I beg to differ. I haven’t heard of you until now and I find it hard to understand why you spend so much time posting on a project’s forum you don’t use.

Anyhow your garbage textwalls are not worth space they take up on our servers, You’ve been banned. Feel free to spread your misinformation somewhere else, but not on my turf.

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