[anonymous] domain ownership, imprint, legal responsibility, copyright violations, trademarks for whonix.org

Organization
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Continuing the discussion from using logos for Whonix discourse forum categories where legal, licensing, trademark issues with images came up.

I think it would be ideal to go for a multi layered defense. As the first thing complying with all legal requirements. This is good as one line and defense. And prevents other types of conflicts. Violating other peoples virtual rights. Not making them angry. Not generating hate and badmouthing.

As a second line of defense however, such - to be researched - legally allowed by possibilities within the law to shift legal responsibility to people where less draconian laws apply is attractive.

shift the domain ownership to anonymous person that u know or someone like my case (his country doesnt care for copyrights another examples like africa or india …etc).

Domain ownership is crucial. The one who owns the domain could get innocently hacked and lose domain ownership. Or bribe the real users of the domain (the Whonix team) to sell it to the most bidding seller.

or shift it to anonymous fake member (doesnt even exist).

This is problematic, because then in cases such as unlawful domain shut down, there would be no one to represent the case in the legal system.

The following website has an interesting imprint:
http://www.freiwilligfrei.info/impressum

They are using the http://www.deuru.com imprint service.

The page is German only, and this whole topic is very specific to German laws.

I would trust them with the imprint service, but it is an incomplete solution.

Quote http://www.deuru.com/faq

Ich bin bei der Denic als Seiteninhaber eingetragen. kann ich dadurch abgemahnt werden?

Ja! Obwohl Sie ja Ihre Verantwortung vertraglich ausgelagert haben bleiben Sie der Domain Inhaber. Der kann laut Landgericht Hamburg abgemahnt werden. Allerdings erst nachdem er von dem Abmahnungsgrund Kenntnis hat.> Dagegen hilft unser Angebot auch die Domain ins Ausland auszulagern. Sie bleiben trotzdem der Besitzer der Domain.

In summary, freely translated: “Even if you are using the imprint service, the owner of the domain can still be sued for violations of third parties.”

Quote http://www.deuru.com/rechtsverletzung-dritter

Deswegen bietet DEURU auch gegen eine geringe GebĂĽhr die Ăśbernahme
Ihrerer Domain an eine ausländische Adresse an. Die Domaine bleibt vertraglich
Ihre Domain als Admin C. Der Besitzer wird ausgelagert und fällt dann
nicht mehr unter das deutsche Gesetz. Dies kann auch sehr kurzfristig
geschehen. Auch dann wenn gerade wie im vorgenannten Fall eine Abmahnung
droht.

In summary, freely translated: “Against a small fee, we would host your domain under a foreign postal address. You would stay the Domain Admin C. Then German laws would no longer apply.”

However, Internetrecht - admin-c-kostenhaftung disagrees, and says that also the Admin C is responsible.

Also the Admin C is not the owner of the domain. The owner of the domain could again, either be hacked and [temporarily] loose the domain or maliciously sell it to the most bidding buyer. Perhaps a contract could forbid that. But the value of a contract with someone in a country the take responsibility for the domain in the first place is worth zero once broken, because it cannot be legally enforced.

The only way out of this legal mess seems to me to transfer domain ownership to a trustworthy organization that offers such services [to Libre Software projects such as Whonix].

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from perspective of general good behavior i would sure agree that we wont need any bad mouthing or haters …etc. from another perspective i would say; every move has it own issues. following the laws is an issue and being against it , is also an issue.

As a second line of defense however, such - to be researched - legally allowed by possibilities within the law to shift legal responsibility to people where less draconian laws apply is attractive.

well thats a good thing , but dont u think that doing something with legal procedures for defensing against another legal procedure (copy rights) sound a little bit confusing or not going to happen? and i think legal always going to be with copy rights. so i dont think that u will find something “within the law”.

tho, if there is a guaranteed procedure; well this might be sound good.

Domain ownership is crucial. The one who owns the domain could get innocently hacked and lose domain ownership. Or bribe the real users of the domain (the Whonix team) to sell it to the most bidding seller.

hacking could happen in both cases, not a critical point. and i meant someone u know = which mean trust worthy person. not an advertiser.or even company like “freedom protecting rights” or even support “copy wrong” if any exist.

This is problematic, because then in cases such as unlawful domain shut down, there would be no one to represent the case in the legal system.

what would legal system do ? re-open the website if the FBI closed it ? fighting with us again the copy rights stuff ?

i think we should put to an end to one of them since it is impossible to deal with separated sides at the same time.

copy rights mean legal mean laws = direct fees , problems , jail , if u r going to break any of them. and if u r going to live under these rules = wont be much different from the life in jail; i wonder how would anyone want succeedness from that.

The only way out of this legal mess seems to me to transfer domain ownership to a trustworthy organization that offers such services [to Libre Software projects such as Whonix].

didnt cached this , transfer whonix domain ownership to whonix? :frowning:

i think the fastest good and guaranteed way to do this is to transfer the domain ownership to fake anonymous account.
and also we can make an website inside the hidden services (just rubbish fixedl one no need activity inside it) , and we made it look like the main one and the clearnet stuff (forum , wiki …etc) r just a fork of the hidden one. so anyone having problems witha clearnet website he should contact the hidden one and the ownership = which both of them r unknown by any. so there will be no harmness nor laws. unless if they can break the hidden one. which is in our case kinda impossible. because we r the hidden services lovers :wink:

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Good day,

I’m not sure I can follow you on that. Transferring a domain to a person or organisation, that doesn’t exist is both highly illegal (the ICANN enforces this worldwide in every country, were they are responsible for TLDs) and serves no purpose, as, to put it quite simply, if the person representing the site doesn’t answer legal question and the person who claims their copyright was infringed goes to court, the first thing they’d be able to do, was get the hoster to take down the site. In case the site is hosted directly at Patricks home, it could even lead to a raid.

Isn’t really an option either, as, at least in the EU, as well as in the US, the one owning the site is responsible for its content, regardless of whether he/she create it himself. Otherwise copyright infringements in general could be bypassed really easily.

Have a nice day,

Ego

4

aha , so they will try trace the servers and shutdown them. like what they did with silkroad , piratebay , megaupload …etc u mean right ?

well im not good witha internet laws (because like i said they r like ink on papers here). but i think the best place is where there is NO authorities on the content.(no copy rights).

Russia? (i dunno) , Middle East (mainly IS region the core secure one against the copy rights = funny but sadly it is) , maybe some Asians countries which i dunno if they r included with this worldwide law or not.

5

Good day,

well, the ICANN is sadley enforcing their rules worldwide, as they are the only organisation, allowed to put out and coordinate TLDs, so “lying” about the owner is not really an option, no matter where the servers would be hosted.

Furthermore, we need to ask us, what benefit this really would bring. As long as we are avoiding to offend copyright laws, there really isn’t a lot to fear about, at the moment, when it comes to offering such software, as Whonix in Germany… Or am I missing a huge advantage?

Have a nice day,

Ego

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As long as we are avoiding to offend copyright laws

actually i was trying to give ways of how to offend the copyright and skip the issues at the same time with fake account + hidden service :grinning: .

but it seems to be dangerous thing on patrick. so i think the best option we have is to try patrick idea (finding an organization) or we just go witha copysh** for the best safety.

7

There are legal loopholes. If it’s moral, why not use them.
Confusing for sure.

If the domain gets shut down due to a mistake or illegitimate reason, there are realistic chances getting it back by using legal actions. Of course that’s not a bulletproof thing but very much worthwhile.

Rewording. And updating.

The only way out of this legal mess seems to me to transfer domain ownership of whonix.org to some trustworthy organization. Or individual. Someone who lives in a safer country legal wise and willing to take the responsibility as a means to contribute to the project or as part of a commercial service.

It would just be another layer of legal defense. No more.

1 Like
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Good day,

under those circumstances, something like Deuru would be great, however, Deuru seems to not be optimal, as the admin is pseudonymous, I wouldn’t trust him. More about the site may be read here (German):DEURU Impresservice – Psiram

So finding something like it by a proven, independent, non-profit, which publicly lists the names and addresses of the people in charge, is definitely necessary, otherwise we might have to deal with far more trouble then copyright problems could ever cause…

Have a nice day,
Ego

9

On psiram: https://forums.whonix.org/t/the-reliability-of-psiram-com/1698

On deuru:

I certainly would not trust them. But once I had a contract proposal from them, I would get an opinion from a lawyer beforehand if that is legally sane. Cheap advice from German lawyers can be easily obtained from frag-einen-anwalt.de.

However, it’s a bit theoretical. Since the imprint service is not a complete solution (because of domain third party responsibility) the only sane improvement would be…

Yes.

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The only way out of this legal mess seems to me to transfer domain ownership of whonix.org to some trustworthy organization. Or individual. Someone who lives in a safer country legal wise and willing to take the responsibility as a means to contribute to the project or as part of a commercial service.

good , if u know any then thats a great idea. :+1:

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check also the big projects that they have gone through problems with copyright or having an experience in it .

hmm like Torrent for example ? or …etc if u know.