Whonix should bundle less pre-installed programs (minimal images)

[Patrick]

Which platform? VirtualBox / KVM or Qubes?

• VirtualBox / KVM: CLI images exist. These are much more minimal.
• Qubes: Whonix minimal template?

Minimal images are great. It’s just a different target audience. Minimal images are most often requested by more technical users.

VirtualBox / KVM: Given a choice between minimal and regular, most users choose regular. Last time I checked, download of minimal images was 10% of total downloads. The other 90% were downloads of the regular image.

Most users want things to “just work”. They’re also much more rarely posting in forums.

Hence, minimal images are not a priority.

@chadsec

@arraybolt3

The last point about updates being fingerprintable is interesting, but at the same time I’m not totally sure that can be prevented with less apps

In cybersecurity, you don’t “prevent” something, instead, you “reduce” the chances. Therefore, I stand with my original point.

You would need to show that the likelihood is indeed lower.

Write down a threat model.

Write down all traffic an adversary can see over time such as initial download of the operating system, update traffic, volume of traffic, etc.

Basically, you want to look like Microsoft Windows current most popular version but without using WIndows?

Review Network, Browser and Website Fingerprint in detail, all of the existing research. And then see if you can really still conclude the same that if changing X then Y will get better.

@chadsec

@arraybolt3

The support issue is worthwhile to take into account, but in practice, we don’t seem to get a lot of support requests for the “extra” applications in Whonix. If we do, they at least aren’t showing up on the forums where I see them.

This is because of the small user base of Whonix, if Whonix as a project ever grows, you sure will.

A background in usability design is required for discussion. It cannot be known from personal opinion and philosophical arguments alone.

@chadsec

@arraybolt3

Users might not know about some security tools that are available to them, and will never install them if they don’t know about them. Providing them out of the box when appropriate helps raise user awareness about them.

This is wrong, if user wants software X, they will figure a way to install software X. But shoving software down a user’s throat as preinstalled, might appear lowkey like a move done by Windows, not a Linux distro.

Being a reasonably complete distribution is the norm. The most popular operating systems are complete, not minimal.

@chadsec

@arraybolt3

Most of the preinstalled programs in Whonix (both Gateway and Workstation) don’t (or at the very least shouldn’t!) connect to the network. If something doesn’t accept untrusted data from a remote source, it can’t possibly provide an RCE vulnerability.

Keyword “most”, we can start with the ones that do connect to the network (think crypto wallets, chat clients, etc) as those are prime targets.

Please show any that connect to the internet without the user starting these.

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Which applications to include versus which one not is opinion based and has a high risk of law of triviality / bikeshed.

It’s also touching the topic of Security versus Usability, The Trade-Off Between Security and Usability.

Do you want maximum security? Be careful what you wish for. → Maximum Security: Unrealistic Expectations?