discourse forums: Isn’t using well-known privacy disrespecting technology (JavaScript) against the essential project goal?

Support
21

Just your asking to blanket ban JavaScript because it could be abused while there isn’t any actual abuse?

How do you know there isn’t?

JS makes it possible much more than the lack of it. That does not mean website owners are abusing intentionally. It means that abuse, exploiting the fact that the users have JS enabled, is possible regardless of owners’ intention (through infrastructure). If JS is not enabled, the possibilities for such abuse are much more limited.

Example: “Verifying your browser” pages, shown by hosting providers, which don’t work without JS - this is not obvious to non-experts. There are also cases when hosting providers inject JS code inside the web pages of the website itself. The website owner might not even know about it. That is not instantly obvious even to experts.

Do you also hold other projects to impossible standards

There are other community websites (which don’t claim superior privacy) that use non-JS-dependent forums. Obviously - possible.

you’re just trolling here while developers wasting explaining the obvious?

Since I am the one explaining the obvious, from my point of view it is the other way around. But thanks for yet another epithet.

As for any other technology which allows downloading and executing arbitrary code - feel free to consider for yourself what it means for security and privacy.

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22

Thank you for your contributions :+1:

I wish you the best of luck building the next generation of JS free decentralized webapps…or running simplemachines servers !

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We spend our free time building arguably the best privacy operating system around. I could spend my time outside of work doing far more profitable things.

You have chosen to do so and nobody has forced you to do it. If you are not happy with your choice and would be happier with something else, why should you quarrel with me because of it? Just do what you want. Or are you suggesting that no discussions should happen, just because project development takes time? Or that you should abuse those who discuss, question and maybe have something to say? I don’t quite get your point.

If you hate javascript web applications, build something better without it? Why are you complaining to us.

It was a question, not a complaint.

Give us the solution.

I gave a suggestion in regards to the machine generated “policy”. What happened? Resistance. This attitude “masters always know better” makes any discussion impossible, even when suggested by someone who has actual experience.

I suggested phoenix, elixir, and liveview already. Once you have something usable in 18 months (optimistic), we will discuss as a team if it is worth us using

Replicant uses Redmine - forum and issue tracker, and has a mailing list too.

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Wow so promising! Released in 2005! Littered with thousands of lines javascript! Terrible UI!

Really opening my mind with this one :man_facepalming:

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27
  • Downloads contents locally so no analysis who reads what and when is possible.

That is up to the software in which one reads it.

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28

FWIW I’m 99% certain that user “whonicks” is the same person as user “qubist” in the Qubes forum (i.e. also same as “emanruse” on github)…you can check there what kind of activity can be expected from this user…Qubes dev unman and others have explicitly noted that many of his posts are unproductive trolling, so I wouldn’t recommend wasting developer time on him.

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http://forums.dds6qkxpwdeubwucdiaord2xgbbeyds25rbsgr73tbfpqpt4a6vjwsyd.onion/guidelines

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I got several such reports now. I was highly suspecting sock puppet use here too.

Have call it out for the first time in ~ 12 years. This chapter applies:
https://producingoss.com/en/difficult-people.html

It’s unproductive. It’s wasting developer time indeed.

Quote from Unsubstantiated Conclusions:

it also happens that adherence to “perfectly moral” behavior or an approved ™ set of political/ideological beliefs is expected from the Whonix project. However, what counts as “perfectly moral” and the path of attaining therein will always be subjective and disputed among proponents. Such demands include “don’t allow running Whonix on Windows hosts”, “don’t have a twitter project account”, “don’t accept Bitcoin donation”, “don’t use centralized services such as telegram”, “don’t document X, because of Y”. Those disagreeing with our methods and philosophy are welcome to exercise their right to software forkarchive.org the project under the respective licenses.

At this level of disagreement and/or miscommunication, I suggest you and me find more productive use of our time. That is, not debates on principles here. Thank you.

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32

Sure, at least generally. However, in the Whonix Forums, it is the opposite: @Patrick uses Discourse as an issue tracker.

So, if you want to practically contribute instead of discussing back and forth with a handful of developers with limited resources, here is a good starting point:

If you are feeling particularily ambitious, provide a suggestion for an alternative forum software meeting your criteria, prove that you can deploy and maintain it, then come back and help migrate the Whonix Forums, currently using Discourse, over to that solution.

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33

No, only in your imagination. If you care to read Free Support for Whonix you see it’s a support forum that should be used rarely in cases where there aren’t any other places. But…

You don’t read long pages and instead waste everyone’s time.

You didn’t read the rules either.

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34

However, in the Whonix Forums, it is the opposite: @Patrick uses Discourse as an issue tracker.

I have addressed that in earlier comments.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/forum

Development - Whonix Forum

I have not posted in that forum section.

So, if you want to practically contribute instead of discussing back and forth with a handful of developers with limited resources, here is a good starting point:

I have no control over who exactly replies to me and I have never asked anything like “please stop your development work and reply to me”, so accusing me of wasting anyone’s resources is simply meaningless. If one decides one has the time, one replies. If one is busy with other things, one does other things. It is that simple.

Consider also the way simple things, which can be answered with 1-2 sentences, are regularly replied to with links to articles requiring 30-40+ min to read, full of all kinds of unrelated stuff. Sometimes even threads are opened with nothing but a link. The point is: when it comes to “wasting resources”, respect goes both ways. Over-optimizing a scarce resource at the expense of human attitude has never attracted more resources.

That said, I am grateful for helpful and meaningful replies, but I don’t think the sudden arrogance that showed up lately is part of them.

If you are feeling particularily ambitious,

In case you mean desire to distinguish myself from others - no, I don’t feel like it.

provide a suggestion for an alternative forum software meeting your criteria,

I have done that. But it didn’t result in further discussion of possibilities. It resulted in ad hominem.

prove that you can deploy and maintain it, then come back and help migrate the Whonix Forums, currently using Discourse, over to that solution.

That is surely possible but the way my suggestions and answers were replied to is not really welcoming it.

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You don’t read long pages and instead waste everyone’s time.

Did you even read the context of what you replied to?

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36

Sure, I understand. What exactly are you going to do from this point given the responses received in this thread thus far?

38

When looking for JS-free software the software project should be a JS-free or at least have noJS compatibility by written design. It should not only be usable without JS as an accidental byproduct. Otherwise future required upgrades are likely introduce a mandatory JS dependency making this exercise a waste of time.

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